For someone who spends as much time communicating as I do, I’m obviously still not very good at it.
Since between work and Pascha services this week I don’t have much time, let me, as the fastest way of saying what I really think about Mormonism, refer you to a post I made this spring, back when Romney was a viable contender. You can find it right here. Basically, I conclude that Mormonism is a false religion, just as much originated by Satan as Islam is, in that he probably inspired two men (Mohammed and Joseph Smith) to write blasphemous lies against Jesus. Mormonism, unlike true Christianity, does not regard Jesus as divine, the only-begotten, unique Son of God. Mormonism teaches that God was once a human, and that all humans (or at least all males) can become gods in their own private universes, peopled by the offspring of their subservient wives (so yes, Mormonism, like other false religions, tramples on women, and, unlike Christianity, regards them as lower in kind than men).
Regarding polygamy, I agree that it’s illegal in America, and that even the biblical patriarchs limited themselves to two wives, and those of an age to consent.
What I was trying to say about the FLDS branch of Mormonism is that 1) I think most Americans’ visceral reaction to them is based on lifestyle choices that have nothing to do with polygamy, but which do present a glaring challenge to the culture of hedonism and free sex that prevails in America today; and 2) I respect groups which hold to the original tradition when it’s not politically correct to do so. The mainstream LDS church threw out Joseph Smith’s original teaching on polygamy because it made their life easier to do so. The FLDS hold onto it; even though that may involve brainwashing women, it’s at least the original form of Mormonism. Similarly, I respect “radical” Muslims more than “moderate” Muslims, because I think the radical Muslims understand and obey the original commands of Mohammed (kill the unbelievers until they submit to you, make no friends with Jews or Christians) better than the watered-down, secularized, moderate Muslims. That doesn’t mean that I approve of suicide bombers; I simply think they’re acting on the logical conclusions of their beliefs.
Does that help at all? Maybe I should also mention that in my personal beliefs, I try to stick to the Bible exactly as God gave it, without making alterations for modern sensibilities. God created the world out of nothing, in the space of six days, and all very good, until it was marred by man’s sin and the entry of death. God condemns sinners to hell in the next life because of their infinite crimes against him, and he is righteous and loving to do so (we can take this up in a later post). God offers free forgiveness and eternal life to all who confess that they have broken his laws, and accept his merciful gift in Christ, who died for us and rose from the dead on the third day, and sits in heaven until his kingdom is established through the whole world, and all nations kneel down and worship him. And along the way, women should submit to their husbands, men should have one wife and be faithful to her, and Christians ought to love their neighbors as much as they love themselves. This is absolutely true, and I make no apology for any of it, except to say that I wrote it as forcefully and bluntly as possible in order to parallel my wild statements about Islam and Mormonism.
They and I are at least in agreement about the existence of absolute truth and the extreme importance of finding it out; just as I had more in common, regarding modest clothes, and avoidance of wild parties, and chastity, and taking time out from studying for religious observances, with the Muslim girls in medical school, than with the nominal Christians.
I look forward to reading your comments. 🙂 And I guess I had better also put out an apology in case any of the above is needlessly offensive, as I may not have time to answer comments till late in the day. I don’t mean to be insulting, but to state the truth as I know it, forcefully. The lateness of the hour may make some phrases ill-judged.
Cut On The Dotted Line 
April 23, 2008 at 9:00 pm
“Suicide bombers acting on the logical conclusions of their beliefs” >> This cannot be possible, there is nothing islamic or logical about suicide, because Islam strictly prohibits suicide. So basically these people who claim to be muslims and who claim to follow islam are not doing what islam teaches. They are sinners because they are disobeying God by committing suicide. Islam also teaches muslims to be sincere and just during war. Killing innocent bstanders and civilians is strictly prohibited in Islam, so suicide bombing, 9/11, and any form of destruction of property is prohibited in Islam.
Not all human beings follow islam the way it is taught. Many cultural influences in middle eastern countries govern the way muslims behave there. This cannot be blamed on Islam. Islam provided many rights to women, including the right of property, the right to divorce, etc… but due to cultural influences from generations preceding islam, these rights are not always provided to women there.
I think you should learn a bit more about islam before speaking so harshly about it, Islam is not a religion from satan.
Have a good day.
April 24, 2008 at 12:26 am
NOTICE: These are my views and not the official views of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I posted this for understanding; I’m not trying to flame anyone.
Have you even read ANYTHING from our church, or are you basing your rant on second hand knowledge? I assume it is the latter.
The first article of our faith (declaring what we believe) states:
We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost. (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/a_of_f/1 )
So, yes, we do believe in Christ. And we believe that Christ is the First born of God in spirit (meaning that, yes, we do believe that there are other SPIRIT children of God i.e. all of humanity–meaning that God created us in spirit before He sent us to earth to gain a body), and that Christ is THE ONLY begotten Son of God in the flesh. We believe (actually it is THE CORE of our faith) that Christ is a divine being (without believing that we could never believe that He was able to suffer and die for our sins–read any of our doctrine and it is apparent that we DO believe this).
So, if I understand your argument, it is that we do not believe in Christ being the unique Son of God because we believe that one day we can become “gods” (still subservient to God). Did Christ and His apostles not talk about inheriting the kingdom of God and all that He hath if we are faithful (not meaning that we will become exactly equal to God and have everything, but that He will give us charge over a part of His kingdom)? We believe that this means we will be given kingdoms of our own within God’s kingdom. This means both man AND woman.
In fact, if you read Doctrine and Covenants ( revealed by the prophet Joseph Smith)
D&C132: “And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife by my word, which is my law, and by the new and everlasting covenant,(we believe this to be eternal marriage) and it is sealed unto them by the Holy Spirit of promise… and it shall be said unto them—Ye shall come forth in the first resurrection… and shall inherit thrones, kingdoms, principalities, and powers, dominions, all heights and depths—then shall it be written in the Lamb’s Book of Life…and they shall pass by the angels, and the gods, which are set there, to their exaltation and glory in all things, as hath been sealed upon their heads, which glory shall be a fulness and a continuation of the seeds forever and ever. ( http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/132 )
You will see that it specifically states that THEY (BOTH man and woman will attain the same things (i.e. the thrones and kingdoms that God has given them). In our church we truly NEVER set men above women (yes, we have different roles, but consider these to be equal). Unlike reports that we hear of the FLDS group (personally I have no clue what they believe) , in which the woman needs the man to be exalted, we believe that BOTH need each other to be exalted (i.e. each one will be judged for how they treated one another etc.)
I emphatically declare that NO ONE in GOOD STANDING in our church puts men over women. Listen to all of the past General Conferences[ http://lds.org/conference/display/0,5234,23-1,00.html ] (general assembly of the church in which our leaders, MEN AND WOMEN, speak to us) and you will see a definite theme of general respect for both sexes.
As far as the renunciation of polygamy by the mormon church, that is a fair criticism; although we believe that it was God’s will ( http://scriptures.lds.org/en/od/1 ). Also (although I have NO CLUE) I have heard that the FLDS drink coffee, alcohol and other substances that we still abstain from (i.e. they have NOT remained constant).
If after SINCERELY reading up on The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and talking to those who view our religion in a positive light (it seems as though you have been speaking to alot of negative people about our church) you still hold those same views, then ok; I accept that.
p.s. I believe that any person/religion/organization that does good things, by definition is not bad/evil and therefore cannot be of Satan. I think that even you’d agree that our church has done alot for our fellow man over the last century (if you’ve read in the news about us helping out all in times of crisis, not just members of our church).
Thanks for listening!
NOTICE: These are my views and not the views of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I posted this for understanding; I’m not trying to flame anyone.
http://www.mormon.org/mormonorg/eng/
http://jesuschrist.lds.org/SonOfGod/eng/?cid=wpats1
April 24, 2008 at 1:01 am
You know, I am amazed that you think that I am trampled upon. Have you actually even met any Mormon women? I bet you have and probably did not even know it. Have you done any real research into your assertion? My husband and I are partners in our marriage and in the rearing of our family. These roles have been taught to us from an early age and I would hardly consider them at all different from what most Christians are taught. We are not told that we are lower in nature than men.
The FLDS group is only “Mormon” (we prefer to be called LDS by the way, if you must give us a nickname) in name. Their precepts are so far from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints that they are hardly even recognizable as originating from there. It horrifies me that people get them confused with the LDS church. We are taught that everyone has free will and is free to choose the path that they will take through life. There is no force involved at all, unlike when those poor girls are forced to marry and become breeding stock.
April 24, 2008 at 12:44 pm
While you’re reading up on Islam, maybe you could brush up on Mormonism as well. Your summary of it reminds me of the kind of statements Richard Dawkins makes about Christians –caricatures of beliefs that would sound quite foreign to the people that embrace the real thing.
The greater issue is one of civil rights and religious persecution. Why the heavy-handedness? If the government can go in and dismantle the FLDS ranch without a shred of evidence of abuse, who’s next? The Amish live in secluded communities. Mennonites? Where do you draw the line? Are evangelical Christians allowed to homeschool their kids, or is that brainwashing too?
April 24, 2008 at 2:41 pm
I posted yesterday, did you receive/remove it?
April 24, 2008 at 5:52 pm
Lee – Sorry, your comment got caught in my spam-catcher due to the links at the end. I unspammed it. Thanks for pointing it out.
April 24, 2008 at 6:04 pm
Mike – I’m not sure what the Koran says about suicide. However, it does clearly teach war on the infidels, and many imams have taught that suicide bombing is guaranteed way to paradise. Mohammed himself killed innocent men, women, and children during the massacres of the Jewish tribes in Medina and the raids on peaceful caravans, so you can’t really say that killing noncombatants is contrary to the spirit of Islam.
As for the source of Islam, the Bible says that any spirit which denies that Jesus Christ is the Son of God come in the flesh is not from God. Interestingly, Mohammed in the Koran did recognize the prophetic authority of Jesus and the Bible, which makes it curiously contradictory for him then later to deny Jesus’ divinity and atoning death as taught in the Bible. Have you read any of the gospels for yourself?
Awesome Mom – I was speaking of Mormon theology as originally revealed by Joseph Smith (his original statements have since been edited by the church; if you’re reading church-authorized editions, you’re probably not getting the original form; check out some historical research on this). I have no doubt that most modern LDS marriages are closer to what you describe.
Observer – Actually, I have read a good deal about both Islam and Mormonism. Comparative religions/cults was one of my favorite subjects last year, when I had the free time. For more on this, see my reply to Lee. As far as the constitutional issue, you are exactly right. That’s another reason I feel driven to defend the FLDS, despite my distaste for their beliefs and practices. Homeschoolers are frequently targeted by children’s protective services; my resident friends compared the FLDS to the Amish, as groups that brainwash their children by keeping them away from the outside world. And anyway, one girl’s accusation against one man is by no stretch of the imagination grounds for disrupting every single family on the ranch, even it were true (which I admit is quite likely, or something like it – although the state’s failure to produce the girl is another flaw in their proceedings).
April 24, 2008 at 6:33 pm
Lee – Just to give my credentials at the beginning, I have read several books about Joseph Smith and the LDS, although I admit I’ve never gotten very far in the Book of Mormon, because honestly the grammar is such a horrible imitation of King James English that I can’t stand to read it, and the storyline is boring anyway. But, I have researched the history and teachings (as they have changed through time) of Mormonism.
I don’t want to get too much into the issue of relations between men and women. After all, I admire the Southern Baptists for their public declaration that women should submit to their husbands. I would simply suggest that the current statements of equality that you quote are no doubt influenced by the need to accomodate modern feminism, just as LDS doctrine has been modified to accomodate the modern dislike for racism (Joseph Smith originally taught that black men and Indians were “the children of Cain,” and that therefore they could never be part of the priesthood – see Journal of Discourses 7:290-291, Oct. 9, 1859).
It would be more profitable for us to focus on your first contention, that the LDS believe in Jesus as the Son of God. Clearly, you’ve quoted enough to demonstrate that as far as semantics are concerned, this is true. The real question is, what do your leaders mean by this statement, and what does the Bible mean when it describes Jesus as the Son of God? I think you’ve done a fair job of summarizing LDS doctrine on this subject. Let me just add this one verse from the Doctrines and Covenants, to clarify the fact that you are indeed referring to the existence of multiple gods:
“[B]ecause they [Isaac and Jacob] did none other things than that which they were commanded, they have entered into their exaltation, according to the promises, and sit upon thrones, and are not angels but are gods.” D&C 132:37
Now let’s contrast this with what the Bible teaches:
“I, even I, am the Lord; and beside me there is no Savior.” – Isaiah 43:11
“Is there a god beside me? There is no other god. I do not know any other.” – Isaiah 44:8b
“I am the Lord, and there is no one else, there is no god beside me.” – Isaiah 45:5
“For thus says the Lord that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the Lord, and there is none other.” – Isaiah 45:18
Mormonism teaches that humans on this earth should worship no others gods; but the Bible clearly teaches that there are no other gods.
“And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld his glory – the glory as of the only-begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth. . . No man has seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, has declared him.” – John 1:14, 18
Here we clearly see that Jesus is not just one among many spirit children. He is a unique entity, of a nature different from our own, which is why he is able to reveal God to us, and why we need the revelation (if we were all, like Jesus, spirit children of the Father, we wouldn’t need such an incarnation of the Father’s glory in order to understand it).
Your statements also show the Mormon preoccupation with earning rewards, ie a kingdom.But the gospel is not about earning our kingdom, but about our complete wretched sinfulness before God (he says in Isaiah that all our righteousness before him is like bloody, filthy rags); nothing that we do can satisfy God’s holy, perfect law, or even begin to earn the least bit of reward, or grace, from God. The good news that Jesus brought is that, even though we deserve nothing but God’s wrath and curse, he chose to love us despite our unworthiness, and Jesus in his death took the punishment we deserve. The kingdom stuff is all secondary. And this is another key point that LDS doctrine fails on: it teaches you that our works qualify us for God’s grace. That’s the wrong way around. God saves us when we can do nothing for ourselves.
April 24, 2008 at 10:00 pm
I think your posts make me realize that you’re just as crazy as they are. What gets me is that you (a female) are a surgeon. Did you sleep through that day in Christian fundamentalism?
April 24, 2008 at 10:33 pm
Dr. Alice,
There’s no way you could have any kind of balanced exposure to Mormonism and still have so many misconceptions about it.
The other problem is you’re clearly not even trying to understand or be open-minded. For example, you somehow interpreted Lee’s assertion of Christ’s divinity as Christ being “just one among many spirit children.” Seriously, what?
As your original post infers, believers have much to gain by banding together against the common enemy of an increasingly secular society. But so long as either side is willing to misrepresent the others’ doctrines such partnerships will never amount to anything.
April 24, 2008 at 10:50 pm
I, for one, appreciated what you wrote and I completely agree with you. I truly admire your faith and determination especially your steadfastness in holding your beliefs in a profession where such beliefs are frowned upon. Please continue.
April 25, 2008 at 2:47 am
alice:
I am a muslim convert from christianity. I have read the bible.
This is what the Quran says about suicide:
“……..Nor kill (or destroy) yourselves: for verily Allah hath been to you Most Merciful! ” (4:29)
The imams who are teaching these false teachings of suicide are sinners against God. Jihad in the quran, also represents the fight in every individual to do good and to resist temptations.
There was war during the prophet muhammad’s time, because the enemies attacked the prophet and his followers, not the other way around. The attackers wanted to get rid of the prophet and his message of islam. The prophet clearly prohibited the killing of women, children, and old aged men during war many number of times.
There is war in the bible too… you believe that Jesus Christ is God, so the God of the old testament is Jesus Christ …
God/JC according to christianity in the old testament ordered his messengers/prophets to:
2 Chronicles 15:13
“All who would not seek the LORD, the God of Israel, were to be put to death, whether small or great, man or woman.”
1 Samuel 15:2,3
“Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.”
Numbers 31:17,18
“Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.
Deuteronomy 20:16
16 However, in the cities of the nations the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes.
Ezekiel 23:45-47 (King James Version)
45: And the righteous men, they shall judge them after the manner of adulteresses, and after the manner of women that shed blood; because they are adulteresses, and blood is in their hands.
46: For thus saith the Lord GOD; I will bring up a company upon them, and will give them to be removed and spoiled.
47: And the company shall stone them with stones, and dispatch them with their swords; they shall slay their sons and their daughters, and burn up their houses with fire.
Alice: I think there was just as much violence in the bible that was ordered by God, who is Jesus Christ according to christianity.
I am a muslim, and I am not going to judge all christians or muslims because of the wars that are described in their holy books, I am a non-violent person and I don’t have any problem with someone believing in something I dont, the quran says: (2:256)
“Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error…
I believe that representing God as the trinity, meaning one is equal to three and vice versa, or that One God can be three different forms…. is basically paganism. Because hinduism has the same philosphy that God is one, but can appear or be many different forms. This is simply against the teachings of the old testament which clearly state:
Exodus 20:4,5 & Deutoronomy 5:8,9
“You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God,….”
So the trinity in my understanding is one god in three forms… the son jesus christ the father god and the holy spirit.. but all three are one and the same. I believe this is the work of the devil.
The word Islam means Submission to one God. The word muslim means believer.
And when muslims pray they are praying to the one God, the creator of the universe, they have no image or idol or form in their minds when they are praying… and definitely not a human being or even prophet.
Even Jesus Christ the prophet of God, according to islam prayed by kneeling and bowing his head to God Almighty.
Matthew 26:39 “And going a little way forward, he (Jesus) fell upon his face, praying…..”
April 25, 2008 at 7:25 am
Dear Dr. Alice,
I applaud your quest to become a Christian Surgeon. Your basic mindset tells me you have a lot left to learn about becoming a Christian. That was one of the most twisted, downright false, and completely uncharitable mischaracterizations of two religions I have ever seen. It is entirely motivated by fear of “competing” religions. If you ever want to know what Mormonism actually teaches, try talking to one sometime, if you can hold down the vitriol.
April 25, 2008 at 11:35 pm
Dr. Alice:
Wow – there’s nothing like propositional statements and exclusive truth claims to get folk riled up!
Check out Grant H. Palmer’s book, “An Insider’s view of Mormon Origins”. He comes to a fascinating conclusion (at least from a Reformed, historic Christian’s perspective) – let’s chuck the Book of Mormon and “embrace the ideals of Jesus”, which sounds like a devolution into modern American evangelicalism.
“preach on”, “testify”, and “take your time”… (a little southern gospel church folk lingo for you there)
-Cynikal, MD
April 26, 2008 at 11:00 am
Debora – There’s no percentage down that line; I know quite well that not everything I do matches what I think I ought to be doing.
Observer – I feel sorry for people whose civil rights are being abused, as I understand the situation, and I think we have some things in common. That doesn’t oblige me to overlook the major doctrinal fallacies that stand between us. As for many spirit children, read what Lee said again. This is part of what Mormonism teaches, that Jesus is one of many spirit children, and that we can do what he did. Lee said, “we do believe that there are other SPIRIT children of God. . .”
Mike – I’ve discussed extensively on this blog before the violent passages in the Old Testament. Bottom line, they’re there, I believe that God commanded them, and that he displayed his righteousness in doing so.
But for you: I am so incredibly sorry to hear that you converted away from Christianity. The Trinity is not three forms of God, but three individual persons, who are indeed one God. I’m not even going to try to make sense of that, except to say that the Bible plainly says that there is one God, and that the Father, Son, and Spirit are all God. It’s a mystery; but it’s not tritheism.
I don’t want to argue with you, I just want to say I am very worried for you. Perhaps you know these verses from Hebrews 10:26-39: “For if we sin wilfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment and fiery indignation . . . Of how much sorer punishment do you suppose he will be thought worthy, who has trodden under foot the Son of God, and has counted the blood of the covenant, with which he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and has done despite to the Spirit of grace? . . . But call to remembrance the former days . . . Now the just shall live by faith; but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. . . ”
The only unforgiveable sin is the sin against the Holy Spirit, which means wilfully and continually rejecting God’s offered grace and forgiveness. It’s not too late, Mike. Please pray and consider again what you are doing.
Doc – I had several Mormon friends in medical school. When we weren’t discussing religion, we got along great because socially and politically we had so much in common. But what I say, I’ve heard from their mouths and from their books. The identity of Jesus is central to this whole discussion. Either he is, as both Mormonism and Islam essentially teach, a glorified man who sets us an example, or he is the only Son of God, himself God, who became a man and died as the only way to pay for our sons. There can be no compromise about that.
Cynikal – Thanks. 🙂
April 26, 2008 at 11:14 am
Cynikal,
It’s obvious that Dr. Alice has already read quite enough critical literature (especially the kind that arrives at the laughably self-contradictory conclusion you describe). I think she’d do well to hear the other side of the story.
April 26, 2008 at 2:22 pm
Dr. Alice,
Lee did NOT say that we can do what Christ did. Nor does Christ being one of many spirit children preclude Him from having a unique, divine nature that makes Him God above all. You manufactured these objections yourself. I’m not asking you to overlook major doctrinal fallacies in Mormonism. I’m asking you to not invent them.
And despite your many assertions to the contrary there’s no way you could have gotten these ideas from Mormons and Mormon books. I don’t know any Mormon that would dispute that Christ “is the only Son of God, himself God, who became a man and died as the only way to pay for our sons.”
April 26, 2008 at 6:29 pm
Alice:
Thank you for your prayers. I am quite content spiritually.
All religious things aside:
I am going to start my surgical internship in July, I have been doing orthopedic and bariatric research for the past few years.. so it has been a while for me since I’ve been involved in the clinical world. Can you advice me what you think would be best to review before July? Anything specific I should concentrate on maybe??? I am feeling a little nervous about seeing patients after so many years that I have not. I found many physical examination sites and I will cover those before I start, but do you think I have to review my micro and bio and all that stuff or just stick with reviewing my internal medicine and surgery and pharm notes??
Anyway…. Thank you in advance for you advice and help. All the best in your surgical career too. I really enjoy reading your surgical experiences, and I imagine myself in your shoes. It’s exciting that I am going to be in your shoes this year. I can’t wait but I am nervous too.
Good luck Alice.
April 28, 2008 at 4:51 pm
I must have been sleeping and hallucinating in Sunday School my entire life, not to mention as a Missionary, because Jesus Christ as the “only Son of God, himself God, who became a man and died as the only way to pay for our s(i)ns.” is the only doctrine on the subject I have ever taught or been taught.
While I am sure it would be so much simpler for the evangelicals if this were not true, alas, it is. You are mistaken. Perhaps it is a matter of confirmation bias and you heard what you wanted to, but your sentence of what we should teach is exactly what we do teach, so you should be happy for us. 😉
April 28, 2008 at 5:50 pm
Doc and Observer – Again, we’re talking past each other. I recognize that Mormons are quite happy to use that phrase; but you do not give it the orthodox Christian meaning. Mormonism teaches that we earn God’s saving grace by doing good works – contrary to the biblical teaching that all our righteousness is in God’s sight like filthy rags, and that we deserve nothing from God but his wrath and curse. Mormonism also teaches that Adam became God the Father, and that Jesus and Lucifer are both his sons, and that humans can become divine beings, ruling universes in their own right. Excuse me if I don’t find the right words; but we do not believe the same thing on this subject.
April 28, 2008 at 11:02 pm
Nobody doubts there are differences between Mormonism and Orthodox Christianity, but if you’re going to persist in saying that Christ’s divinity is among them I think the least you can do is explain how. But if you can’t “find the right words,” most open-minded people would take that as a hint that they could be mistaken. Just like you’d be mistaken if you thought that one could even find the words “earn” or “deserve” anywhere in Mormon canon.
Otherwise I’m left to wonder how insecure you must be in your own faith if you’re only willing to compare it to a trumped-up versions of other faiths that no real person believes in.
April 30, 2008 at 3:04 pm
Doc and Observer,
You cannot hold that the LDS faith is identical with historic Christianity without running seriously afoul of the historic doctrine regarding the nature of the Church. If Christ and the apostles are to be believed then the Church is Christ’s body and He leads it in its pursuit of truth. NO church council, NO Christian theologian in ANY of the three great branches of historic Christianity (Eastern Orthodoxy, Roman Catholicism, and Protestantism) has EVER countenanced the possibility of radical new additions or changes to the canon of Scripture (such as the Book of Mormon), which was largely settled in the first two centuries after Christ. The Gospels, Acts, and the Epistles of Paul were universally recognized as canonical in the second century when the first non-Biblical Christian works show up. And in spite of minor arguments over the nature of the last eight books of the New Testament (see Eusebius, among many others in the early writers), there was NEVER any question that the Church had the fullness of the Word of God from the beginning of the Church’s history. To think that there were major addtions to written revelation yet to come nearly 2,000 years later is to think that for 2,000 years God left the Church without necessary knowledge, after having told us that in the Scriptures we have all things necessary for life and godliness (this from a late NT passage which assumes much of the rest of the NT to be part of that “scripture”).
Protestants do not agree with the Eastern Orhtodox and the Roman Catholics about the whether the Church and her councils are infallible, but classical Protestants all agree with the EO and RC that the traditions of the Church are valuable and necessary guides to understanding the Scripture, and that we are NOT to simply rely on the the Bible alone — that is a modern Protestant aberration (embarrassing to admit since I am a Protestant). Even if we tried to rely on the Bible alone, we’d immediately run into all those passages about how God has given us preachers, teachers, etc. whom we are required to listen to. They are not authority in the same way that the Scripture is authoritative but they have weight. Sola Scriptura meant that Scripture is the highest authority, not that it is the only authority.
So we have to pay attention to what the Church has done over the last 2,000 years and it has not done or said ANYTHING that would lead us to believe that major revelation was still to come. If the Church has been wrong for 2,000 years about something as major as the sufficiency of the revelation on which we stake our souls, then as our atheist friends point out, we ought to question everything we believe about God.
Interesting way to put your last paragraph). I often think that same thing about the neo-atheists (Hitchens, Harris, et al) who attack Christianity with their “trumped-up versions” of the historic Christian faith.
May 1, 2008 at 2:48 am
The plan of salvation, or “The Great Plan of Happiness,” as taught by the church, describes humanity’s place in the universe and the purpose of life. The church teaches that there was a pre-mortal existence, a place which existed prior to mortality in which all people and all life were created in spirit form. Central to this is the notion that humans existed as spirits before birth, were raised by Heavenly parents and had essential human characteristics such as gender. This general idea is also stated as “We lived in the presence of God.”
During the pre-earth life, Heavenly Father presented a plan to have a Savior make it possible for mankind to be saved. Jesus Christ stepped forward as the chosen Savior. However, Lucifer, one of the spirits, proposed a rival plan whereby every soul would be saved, he would receive God’s power, and human agency would be eliminated. When God rejected that plan, the War in Heaven ensued, resulting in Lucifer and one third part of the spirits being cast out and denied ever receiving physical bodies. Lucifer became the devil.
The earth, according to church teachings in the temples, was created by Jehovah, which the church identifies as the pre-mortal Jesus, and Michael the archangel, who is identified as the pre-mortal Adam. The earth was “organized” from pre-existing matter, as were other planets with their inhabitants. Michael’s spirit was placed into his body which was created by God the Father and Jehovah, and became a living soul known as Adam.
The church teaches that at birth, a pre-existing spirit enters a mortal body. Upon death, the spirit goes to a “spirit world” to await the resurrection of the dead. There, a preliminary judgment, based solely on whether a person has had a baptism by the authority of the priesthood and received their confirmation either in this life or after death by proxy places the spirit in either a state of paradise(has completed all the saving ordinances) or spirit prison (those who have not had the saving ordinances). Those in “prison” will be visited by spirits from paradise and given the chance to learn of the teachings of Jesus Christ and to accept the accompanying saving ordinances. The church teaches that all persons, wicked or righteous, will be resurrected and receive an immortal, physical body. The nature of that body, however, will depend on the result of the Last Judgment, at which Jesus will assign each soul to one of three degrees of glory (heavenly kingdoms): the celestial kingdom in the presence of the Father and the Son for those who accept Jesus Christ and receive all LDS saving ordinances, either as a mortal or by proxy; the terrestrial kingdom, a place of glory in the presence of Christ for righteous persons who refuse to receive the saving ordinances and for those who do not keep the covenants they commit to; and the telestial kingdom for the wicked. A further destination, called outer darkness, is reserved for Satan, his devils, and those mortals who commit the unpardonable sin and thereby become the sons of perdition. Those who are ultimately destined for the telestial kingdom will be those who suffer for their sins in hell; however, these persons remain in hell only the 1000 years during the millennial reign of Christ, after which they will exit hell and be resurrected with an immortal body into a state of peace.
Those in the Celestial Kingdom will be allowed to continue to progress and become joint heirs with Jesus Christ; but only individuals that are in the highest degree of the Celestial Kingdom will eventually be enabled in eternity to become gods and goddesses and participate in the eternal creative process of having spirit children.
To become Gods and Goddesses and be involved in the creative process of having spirit children…….now that’s just crazy talk!!!!!
May 1, 2008 at 6:14 pm
Mike – I confess to being a little puzzled. I think you’re trying to state what the LDS believe in the interest of showing that it’s not the same as what Christians believe. Is that right?
May 2, 2008 at 8:15 pm
Yes Alice, thats right. Its almost like the LDS have created their own perverse form of christian salvation for their spiritual convenience.
No offence to any LDS followers, this is just my personal opinion.
May 3, 2008 at 12:28 pm
Wes,
I admitted in my previous comment that there ARE differences between historical Christianity and Mormonism. But talking about real differences (like the ones you’re pointing out) instead of Dr. Alice’s imaginary ones is far more constructive.
As far as the rest of your comments, I wouldn’t say that the church was wrong about scripture sufficiency for 2,000 years anymore than the Jews were wrong about the law of Moses for 4,000 years before the gospel of Christ. Just as the New Testament fulfills the Old Testament, so can the Book of Mormon add to our understanding of Christ.
May 3, 2008 at 12:46 pm
mike,
When you’re done cribbing Wikipedia articles and calling names, please feel free to join us at the grown-up table and say something intelligent.
May 3, 2008 at 3:25 pm
Observer,
I wasn’t clear enough about why I was carrying on about church history. It was because I agree with Alice that Christians and Mormons have fundamentally different ideas about Christ’s divinity, just as Christians and Muslims have fundamentally different ideas about God. And it was because the Church’s view of Christ throughout history is the benchmark by which we can measure that difference. You may call Alice’s differences “imaginary” or Mike’s “cribbing”, but the Mormons I grew up with in the 1970s (in a town near the Utah border which was 70% Mormon) all talked that way, including the elders and bishops. None of them would have batted an eyelash at Alice’s or Mike’s characterization of their religion. And that characterization is flatly contradictory to 2,000 years of Christian Church exegesis of all the Scriptures about Christ.
Your comparison of the OT Jews and the Church seems plausible unless you actually think about it. All Jews, even the ones that rejected Christ as the promised Messiah, knew there was more to come: a Messiah and the greater revelation He would bring. That was one of the great hopes of the Jews. But that is NOT true about the Church — it has NOT been looking forward to a coming fulfillment like the Jews always were. The Church always has claimed that the Scriptures are complete and that the true Messiah has come.
May 5, 2008 at 12:33 am
My remark above, “Your comparison of the OT Jews and the Church seems plausible unless you actually think about it” came across as terribly snide and I apologize for that. I meant to say something like, “until you think further” or something. Shoulda had more sleep. 🙂
May 5, 2008 at 6:58 pm
comment deleted for language
May 6, 2008 at 7:34 pm
Wes, if you agree with Dr. Alice that the Mormon view of Christ’s divinity is so irreconcilable with the traditional view I think it behooves you to explain how. Otherwise, since I am the world’s greatest authority on my personal beliefs, you’ll have to forgive me if I don’t accept them as they are dictated to me by critics or your anecdotal experience.
I didn’t criticize the content of mike’s cribbing because apart from a few details I see nothing wrong with it. My only indication that it came from elsewhere was its surprising lucidity as compared to his little comments afterward.
Any analogy will break down eventually if you “think about it”. Centuries of teaching and exegesis was of no help to the Jews that rejected Christ since they often did so on the basis of scripture. But the Jews who accepted Christ interpreted the Old Testament scriptures with new eyes and found confirmation of their belief that the Messiah came first as a suffering servant, just as all Christians do today. Faith demands it. It should be no surprise that Mormons do the same.
May 7, 2008 at 10:28 pm
Observer, I wasn’t discussing your personal beliefs or trying to dictate to you, and I’m sorry that I sounded that way. Your personal beliefs are completely irrelevant, as are mine. What’s relevant is what historic Christianity has taught compared to what historic Mormonism has taught, not what each of us personally believes. If you personally believe about Christ what the Christian church has historically taught, that’s wonderful. But I was talking about historic Mormonism, not you personally. My anecdotal experience of many Mormons is relevant because if *many* Mormons believe something, that says more about what Mormonism in general teaches than what *one* Mormon (you) personally believes.
Yes, of course any analogy will break down if you press it too far but if it breaks down at the very point where it is supposed to be parallel there is a problem with it. 🙂 My point was that ALL Jews, whether they rejected Christ or not, understood that their law and prophets pointed to Someone to come who would fulfill their longings. Those who rejected Christ only said *he* was not the fulfillment, not that there would never be *any* fulfillment at all. But Christianity has *never* held that there would *any* further revelation. Instead, it has always held that that all necesary revelation had been given in the first century and NO more was needed.
May 8, 2008 at 12:03 pm
Wes,
Actually, I don’t think your experience with Mormons is relevant in the least. Most orthodox Christians I know believe in a form of Modalism, i.e. one God in three forms, rather than the creedal Trinity. By your standard, since *many* Christians believe in a false view of God in my anecdotal experience, that says more about orthodoxy than what their pastor would say.
My analogy was meant to show how God’s people can be wrong for hundreds of years and yet that shouldn’t cast aspersions on what you and I know about God. You’re misunderstanding this to be a commentary on whether or not the canon is closed and saying, “Look, it doesn’t fit.” No kidding.
May 9, 2008 at 1:32 am
Observer,
Touche’ on your first paragraph. You’re quite right. So we agree that the discussion shouldn’t turn on our personal beliefs or what many believe, but what Christianity historically has taught and what Mormonism historically has taught, yes?
As for your analogy, I confess that you’ve lost me. I thought you said that the Jews were *not* wrong all those years, just incomplete; and that in the same way the Christian church has not been wrong for 2,000 years, just incomplete. And now Mormonism is the completion of Christianity just as Christianity was the completion of Judaism. Isn’t this what you were saying when you first introduced this analogy?
May 9, 2008 at 5:36 pm
Let me restate it this way: Mormons don’t find the arguments of the Christian Fathers against a closed canon very compelling, much like St. Paul wouldn’t find the Jewish arguments against a crucified Christ very compelling, no matter how many hundreds of years they believed and practiced the aspects of the Law those arguments are based on.
May 10, 2008 at 4:37 pm
Thanks, Observer. Let me ask you this: why do you think Christianity should accept Mormonism and yet not accept Islam, when they both claim to be further needed fulfillment of the truth first laid down in the O.T.?
May 11, 2008 at 7:50 pm
I seem to have given you the wrong impression from my analogy run amok, but that doesn’t change my answer to your excellent question: the Holy Spirit can teach you all things, and that includes what you should accept as the truth.
May 12, 2008 at 2:18 am
Well, there I would certainly agree with you. But that’s the real reason I don’t accept either Islam or Mormonism.
I’ll give it a rest now and let you have the last word, or just breathe a sigh of relief and get back to whatever it is you do. 🙂 Thanks for the exchange!
May 12, 2008 at 2:27 pm
No argument here. Glad to be of service.